@PhilipDAth I personally think the MX64 should/could work fine for the client count of 500 (not sure I would go past this though). Unless they are ALL actively pushing traffic 100% at the same time, I don't think it will have a noticeable impact. I would prefer an MX67 of course, but I use the sizing guide as just that, a guide. I have an MX64 with about 500 clients a day (internet pipe only being 150Mbps at this specific site though) for guest, and it chugs along just fine. Again though the circuit isn't maxed out all the time, spikes here and there etc. I am planning on upgrading it to an MX84 in the near future once I pull it out of my DC which is being upgraded to an MX250. Overall the type of event would help both of us decide what would be best because if its a party and only a few people are using their phones at the same time, or if its some sort of training and everyone is on laptops at the same time, could change this.
At 20Mhz the MR52/MR53 can use all four radios servicing clients concurrently - while an MR33 can only use two radios - so an MR52/MR53/MR55 can handle twice as many clients straight away.
^However I'm confused by this line here. When you say radio's do you mean antenna? And when you say concurrently are you specifying MU-MIMO? Off the cuff I don't agree with this, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
Ironically there was a recent blog post (yesterday) about this from an associate that should help with exactly this problem.
https://wifiburns.wordpress.com/2019/03/28/how-many-clients-can-we-have-per-radio/
RF being a finite resource and all, client capabilities, all come into account. Are all the clients transferring/streaming at the same time?
For a high density situation like this, if you CAN use 40MHz, then that will increase efficiency and throughput overall. If you can't because now you have access points stepping on each other, then default to 20MHz which is usually the safest scenario. Key here is you don't want any access points using the same channels (assuming this is in some sort of isolation and clean RF environment). This also applies for 2.4GHz, and you've only got 3 channels there to play with so if you have 10 access points in your final design, you'll be needing to turn off some of the 2.4GHz radios.
In the space you mentioned its probably not going to be possible to use a 4th 2.4 radio without it having to contend with one of the other 3 you have enabled. So for this, I would separate the SSID you are going to use into a 2.4 only and 5-only so that clients have a smooth roaming process. I would treat this as you want full coverage and some contention, versus no contention and coverage issues.
Technically the MR52/53 is a more capable access point as it probably has more powerful hardware, and they have 4x4:4 stream capabilities, however you have to keep in mind the clients being super important (hint - there are no 4SS clients). Download MU-MIMO will only work with clients that support 802.11ac Wave-2, and that whole idea basically became a joke in the real world. So at the end of the day, the AP will still be sending to one client at a time, just like an MR33.
If you compare a MR33 (2x2:2) vs MR52 (4x4:4) for example. If the client is a smart phone, it most likely only a 1SS or 2SS. I know the Macbook Pro has a 3x3:3 radio so you could see more throughput for that specific client. However if you have a client that is 1SS or 2SS, you 'technically' will still see some gains, just not via the spatial streams. Those would come in the benefit of having more antennas on the MR52 providing better diversity, STBC, better signal/SNR etc. So in a lab test setup you would see some gains, maybe 10 or 20% 'better' (or so I've read).
This blog here also explains everything clearly as well: http://divdyn.com/wi-fi-throughput/
In this space, what is more important in my opinion is going to be the actual RF design. If you just through 10 access points (any model) into a space like a basketball stadium because 'math wise' it works out, it won't necessarily guarantee that the clients will evenly distribute themselves between all 10 access points. You could have one AP with 80 clients, and another with 10. You need to use directional antenna, static channel/power, probably RX-SOP etc.
Its a whole process that needs to be done correctly to ensure everything runs as optimal as it can, which is why people like me have a job 😃
At the end of the day, you can do a perfectly suitable design with MR33 and everything will work. If you use MR52, sure you get some gains, at a higher cost, and everything will also work. Since it looks like you already have the MR33, you need to figure out what clients you will have, and figure out the math from the links above to determine how many AP's you need.
@route_map wrote:understood, i already have the MR33s and MX64
I also have 4 MX74 and MA-ANT-20 antenna's
quick summary of the event i am going to cover. it is an open park
length = 101 metres
width = 58 metres
would the the MX74s cover 500 users
So that is about 350 feet by 200 feet or so, so assuming your mounting these antenna on the ceiling (again too many unknowns for me to give perfect advice), and you have your TX power set correctly etc., coverage shouldn't be an issue at all. Actually coverage would be achievable with that setup with just ONE if you had max power lol (don't do this though). However, with only four access points you will probably be running into capacity issues at this point, and probably maxing out the hardware limit of client counts on the AP potentially if for whatever reason you have 'too many' clients getting stuck on one of the APs.
Off the cuff, from a mixture of clients of like (150 1SS, 150 2SS, 150 3SS) your probably going to need like 10 access points. This is just off my brain cells, use the calculator above with accurate data input to get realistic values. I'll reiterate though that this 60k or 70k square foot space, I think you'll have a problem wrangling the RF design with only omnidirectional antennas that your going to use. I think RX-SOP might be the saving grace here but do not use this if you don't know what it is.
@route_map wrote:it is an open park
I literally somehow missed this tidbit of information lol.
How are you mounting any of this gear? This could change everything drastically lol.
@PhilipDAth Are you referencing experience or simply data sheet limits? You might be right, maybe 500 is the breaking point I honestly don't know. The MX64 I'm using hits about 300 clients a day, and I have not seen any signs of buckling or anything though.
Below being an average day. ISP pipe is 150Mbps down/20Mbps up (boy I wish it was symmetrical).
I agree that using 4 access point isn't enough though for sure. And actually, now that I know its an open field crowd, using the people bodies can come to your benefit. Its how we design inside stadiums, we put AP's under seats and the human body attenuates around 3db so it helps to regain channel re-use. Of course I would now be worried about someone knocking them over, messing with them etc. lol.
I'd be more concerned about the wireless being overloaded vs the MX though in this situation based on mine running 300 clients on average pretty smoothly (so far).
I'm curious to hear how it all works out though @route_map , so if you could provide an update after whatever solution you implement, that would be appreciated 😃
'concurrent'
Do you mean simply clients grabbing an IP off the scope and not really passing much traffic (in peoples pockets) or do you mean they are all trying to pass at the same time?
Not sure what the venue is, maybe its a music festival or some concert etc. I would be surprised though if there is more than 50% of anyone using/passing traffic at the same time. Again I don't know, only the original poster could tell us. 😃
@PhilipDAth wrote:>we put AP's under seats and the human body attenuates around 3db so it helps to regain channel re-use
I do like this idea. I tend to use focused antennas, but this is a smart idea to deliberately kill and limit the range of the signal.
Its a win-win because now the AP's don't hear each other that well (or the clients) via FSPL. And the clients will basically be 'forced' to connect to the nearest AP they can actually hear, increasing MCS rates, lowering retries etc. Never done this in an open field so I'm curious to see how he implements it. 😃
You guys are legends, so much valued information
Now i am kinda scared to do this event as i do not want to crash and burn,
This is my first event and want to showcase Meraki and Purple wifi for splash page and analytics.
please ask the questions and i will answer as i am available right now. you guys are very help full.
I want to do more events with larger crowds.
quick question 4x MX74 wont do the job?
Egg found!!
Also, if you want the event to be as smooth as possible, and end-user experience to be friction-less, I would do yourself a favor and remove any splash page. Just have an SSID that is wide-open so people connect, and boom that is it.
Splash pages tend to have issues, users have problems with them, they get frustrated, they'll think the wireless sucks even though its technically something else like a DNS issue or splash page slow to respond or something else that isn't RF related.
Meraki gives you analytics built in, just make sure you enable Detailed Analytics under the General settings. Not sure what Purple Wi-Fi will give you, other than a splash-page of headaches. 😃
However, if your backhaul is going to be 10-50Mbps, it simply won't matter how well you design this system. That backhaul is going to get saturated almost instantly.
No more spam please haha 😃
